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  1. steve c…you’re alright. i dont think giuliani cleaned up crime. i think he took it over. once a wiseguy, always a wiseguy.

    Posted by darin | April 25, 2007, 12:22 pm
  2. Jeez Scott, could you not give us a 1-2 day of warning?! I would have called if I had had some way to be warned on time. Anyway – next time them. Which brings the question: *when* will your next “me, myself and I” show?

    Also – here is a small quote which I would want to submit to the Libertarian that you are:

    When people talk about the “free market” they talk about a level playing field, but we live in a world were disparity and inequality have been institutionalized for thousands of years. You have racism, class and caste, and religion and ethnic divisions; this is the kind of world we live in. So in a world like this, what is the “free market”? It is like playing marbles on a very steep slope: however good you are at playing marbles, all the marbles are going to roll downhill and the people who are downhill will own all the marbles and they are the ones who will eventually make all the decisions.

    Arundhati Roy (quote from the film DamAge)

    Posted by vineyardsaker | April 25, 2007, 12:57 pm
  3. …Darin: funny, but that’s the same thing an Italian friend of mine and former bookmaker from da’ Bronx says. That, and if Giuliani gets the GOP nomination in ‘08—The Dem strategists will be quick to make Bernie Karrick his running mate.

    Vinny: Reality is a forever demanding and cruel situation. An economy is to a two legged animal? Is what predation is to those with four. Throw in Shakespeare’s adage to boot: “…Master? I marvel at how the fishes live in the sea?”
    “Why, as men do ashore boy. The great eat the small.”

    …Another old story that’s hard to argue with.

    Posted by Mace Price | April 25, 2007, 1:29 pm
  4. CC: Man, sorry, I tried to address your thing about the worse violence when we leave or not, but spaced out and forgot what I was talking about. It happens. : )

    Call and put me on the spot about it. We’ll work it out.

    Posted by Scott | April 25, 2007, 2:26 pm
  5. VS: Sorry man, I was trying to line folks up until the last minute. That’s the way it’ll usually be. You’ll just have to listen live every day. : )

    Short, type-written answer: It’s true that some people have a leg up, but as Homer Simpson says, “Yeah, but what are you gonna do.”

    Your friend asks the right question, but from a false premise. It is a leftie fallacy that without the state all the power and money will concentrate and centralize. That’s what the government is for. If you ever want that field level, you have to have individualism and property rights. They are the biggest enemies of racism, caste systems, etc.

    Posted by Scott | April 25, 2007, 2:38 pm
  6. Scott – I really want to take up this discussion more in depth with you (the State vs. Libertarian ideals). How do you want to do it, if at all? Exchange emails? Me calling your show (only when I have at least 24 hours warning – sorry) or just a thread here on the website? As a European I find that your anti-state arguments (-: even those from Austria :-) have some huge flaws in them and listening the other day to your discussion with the guest who explained why no state is needed (sorry, forgot the name right now) the feeling only got stronger. I really want to understand American Libertarians (I like you guys if only because you are the only truly active and consistent anti-war & anti-empire people out there. The “Republicrats” are a pathetic joke). Anyway – lemme know if/how we can discuss this.

    Cheers,

    VS

    Posted by vineyardsaker | April 25, 2007, 4:21 pm
  7. How about thursday you call in and we’ll talk all about it?

    Posted by Scott | April 25, 2007, 5:23 pm
  8. Tomorroe Thrusday sounds good to me. When do you want me to call in? 11AM Texas time is 12PM here in Florida (yeah, don’t laugh, that’s were I now live…) so how does 11:30AM sound? Number still 512-646-6446?

    Posted by vineyardsaker | April 25, 2007, 5:27 pm
  9. Unless I hear back from Moyers, the 1:00 est hour is open season. First hour tomorrow I have George McGovern and Sara Olson.

    Posted by Scott | April 25, 2007, 5:31 pm
  10. ok. I will call you at 1PM tomorrow Florida time. I very much look forward to it!

    Posted by vineyardsaker | April 25, 2007, 6:49 pm
  11. The crux of interventionism is that committing colossal acts of mass murder in a violent region somehow reduces the amount of violence taking place there. It’s dumb. The belief that Iraq will get worse when the occupation ends is an interventionist argument since it implies that the occupation must never end. For humanitarian reasons of course. The only way things can improve is if the people who have murdered and exiled millions of Iraqis over the last 2 decades finally leave them alone.

    As for how the ‘sectarian violence’ in Iraq started, and who might benefit from it, read this article by Robert Fisk from March 2004 about the civil war. “All this talk of civil war, and now this carnage. Coincidence?”

    Odd, isn’t it? There never has been a civil war in Iraq. I have never heard a single word of animosity between Sunnis and Shias in Iraq.

    Al-Qa’ida has never uttered a threat against Shias – even though al-Qa’ida is a Sunni-only organisation. Yet for weeks, the American occupation authorities have been warning us about civil war, have even produced a letter said to have been written by an al-Qa’ida operative, advocating a Sunni-Shia conflict. Normally sane journalists have enthusiastically taken up this theme. Civil war.

    &

    It’s not that I believe al-Qa’ida incapable of such a bloodbath. But I ask myself why the Americans are rubbing this Sunni-Shia thing so hard. Let’s turn the glass round the other way. If a violent Sunni movement wished to evict the Americans from Iraq – and there is indeed a resistance movement fighting very cruelly to do just that – why would it want to turn the Shia population of Iraq, 60 per cent of Iraqis, against them? The last thing such a resistance would want is to have the majority of Iraqis against it.

    &

    We are entering a dark and sinister period of Iraqi history. But an occupation authority which should regard civil war as the last prospect it ever wants to contemplate, keeps shouting “civil war” in our ears and I worry about that. Especially when the bombs make it real.

    Posted by Cous Cous | April 25, 2007, 7:26 pm
  12. Now here’s the first part and the second part of an article from Counterpunch, also written in early 2004, about the main propaganda used to promote the ‘civil war’.

    I listed reasons for a healthy agnosticism about allegations concerning Zarqawi, al Qaeda, and the supposed attempt to foment civil war in Iraq.

    The first was that the alleged Zarqawi letter could not have been more congenial to the Bush Administration if it had been composed by Karl Rove. Invoking the spectre of the universally-loathed al-Qaeda, it supported the interpretation that all of our troubles in Iraq are caused by outside agitators, not the Iraqis themselves. The inference is that violence in Iraq is not part of a war of national liberation, not a structural matter that will impede the flowering of American-style democracy, but by agitation that will pass when we get our hands on Saddam Hussein . . . or, I should say, Zarqawi. The second reason for skepticism was that the communiqué was made public when “American officials” revealed it exclusively to the New York Times. Like many other government specials to the Times, the only source cited was “senior government officials.” There was no attempt to consult non-government intelligence experts, authorities on Al Qaeda, authorities on terrorist activities, or scholars on the Middle East to explore any causes for skepticism. Rather, the Times continued its habit of running with whatever the U.S. government says. This has been characteristic of other government “exclusives” to Times reporters that have proven to be false.

    The “Civil War” was an attempt to rename the violence in Iraq. Rather than admitting that they were still murdering recalcitrant Iraqis, they could now claim that all the Iraqis were being killed by each other. They could also claim that all American deaths were the byproduct of being caught in the middle of an ‘Iraqi Civil War’ instead of an endless guerrilla war.

    On a domestic level, they hoped the Americans & Iraqis would be cowed into supporting the occupation for fear of things getting worse. While the Americans seem to believe this, the Iraqis refused to accept American protection from violence that only arrived after the Americans became frustrated by their inability to control Iraq.

    Posted by Cous Cous | April 25, 2007, 7:31 pm
  13. Man, I think you’re cherry picking. Whether or not the average Iraqi put their religious identity first, the supreme Ayatollah Ali al Sistani has adamantly refused all efforts to bring the Sunni Arabs into the new SCIRI/Dawa run government. Sadr has tried a couple of times and has been thwarted not only by the U.S. but by his religious superior. The former Baathists and Sunni imams are not going to settle for a Sunni triangle and no oil. Whether or not the Zarqawi letter was real it only makes perfect sense that the Qaeda types interest has been in extending the war as long as possible. It has been the policy of Badr and Sadr both to “cleanse” Baghdad of Sunni Arabs and the U.S. has gone right along.

    Whether or not it will get worse is not knowable for a fact either way, but I think it’s likely that it will. I also think that that is completely besides the point and that the US should leave anyway.

    Posted by Scott | April 25, 2007, 11:03 pm
  14. Here’s your dancing Bush…haven’t seen him this presidential in a long time…

    http://www.wkyc.com/video/player.aspx?aid=33969&bw=

    Posted by Bob Bogus | April 25, 2007, 11:33 pm
  15. Ya know Bushie almost dances as well as Yeltsin did. I think that’s what I’m gonna miss most about Yeltsin being gone…

    Posted by Bob Bogus | April 25, 2007, 11:37 pm
  16. haven’t seen him this presidential in a long time…

    ha!

    Posted by Scott | April 25, 2007, 11:54 pm
  17. Scott, the Iraqis are fighting the occupation because they have virtually no electricity, fuel, or water and get tortured and murdered frequently. These things aren’t likely to change as long as the Americans remain there, so the ‘civil war’ will continue until they leave. I don’t think the current political situation matters to that many Iraqis, since it will be irrelevant once the occupiers (and the carpetbaggers) have left.

    The Zarqawi communiqué was clearly a joke: “Zarqawi has warned of attacks on the majority Shia population with the aim of provoking a Sunni-Shia civil war to wreck the US plans to pull out of Iraq on 30 June” America sincerely wants to leave Iraq in June 2004; but only if there isn’t a civil war! That’s high comedy. Al Qaeda wants the same thing they did in Afghanistan in the 1980s – to defeat the invader. Sunni and Shia attacking each other won’t accomplish that, but it certainly will help the Americans.

    You know that America is sponsoring Sunni terrorism in Iran, and is funding any Sunni group that they think will fight Hezbollah in Lebanon. They clearly think Sunni fighting Shia is the solution to their problems. Why do you think they haven’t been trying the same solution in Iraq?

    vineyardsaker – read Nock. ”No State known to history originated in any other manner, or for any other purpose than to enable the continuous economic exploitation of one class by another.”

    Posted by Cous Cous | April 26, 2007, 9:43 am
  18. …Ya know a little bit of The Dancing Decider goes a long way… Past that, Cous—When do you see them, ie carpetbaggers and occupiers leaving Iraq? Because frankly I don’t…And while Nock was as precise as he was correct. It takes a State and often a tyrannical one, to dispose another of another.

    Posted by Mace Price | April 26, 2007, 10:47 am
  19. …That, and Remember what that nasty little man Wolfowitz said Cous: “Iraq is floating on a sea of Oil.” 112.5 billion barrels to be exact. That is why I don’t see them leaving. Not even if they have to preside over an Internecine Arab Genocide; and the indemnity and petroleum conduits the eventual partitioning of Iraq will provide Israel…It is my considered opinion that they are as indifferent to this wholesale slaughter on a Moral Basis as I am to Sanjaya…It would be one thing for the US and The “Coalition of the willing” to be massacring Arabs on a level we presently see them killing one and other. But so long as they, the Shia-Sunni continue undeniably—and moreover visibly culpable of precisely that…Any number of false and or Moral rationales for remaining in Occupation of Iraq emerge…While the Realpolitik i.e. The engineered creation of a Power vacuum and the subsequent exploitation of rival Arab factions tribes etc.. is effectively obfuscated…Trust me the neo-Cons had this bloodbath planed years before. When they have presided over Iraq finally bleeding itself white and collapsing—They’ll partition the country and install a puppet regime and thereby control all 112.5 billion bbls of Oil….As they say Gentlemen “Follow the money.” So let’s put it in a numerical context. One of you mathematicians out there multiply the present cost of a barrel of crude times 112.5 billion. and you’ll see why the sons of murderous bitches are willing to expend a Trillion of your tax dollars there, as always in the name of “Freedom.” …This is a bad bunch.

    Posted by Mace Price | April 26, 2007, 11:52 am
  20. They didn’t plan for this to happen. They expected Jordan with oil and got the West Bank instead.

    112,000,000,000 (112 billion) barrels of oil at the prewar price of $20 per barrel is 2,240,000,000,000 (2,240 trillion) dollars. The defense budget by itself is about 600 billion dollars per year now, so they could’ve skipped the war and just bought it all during the last 4 years.

    They already have puppets in charge. The puppets can’t control the place, and neither can America. They’ll leave when they’re tired of fighting a hopeless guerrilla war.

    Posted by Cous Cous | April 27, 2007, 4:43 pm
  21. …”They’ll leave when they’re tired of fighting a hopeless guerrilla war” …Well, it’s happened before in History. As you know The French left Algeria. Both the French and the US left Indo-China…The Dutch left Indonesia…The Japanese left China Even the Russians left the Baltic States…When the British Colonial Delegation asked Gandhi “Do you expect us to just walk out of India?” Gandhi retorted “Yes, that is precisely what I expect”…The list of former Colonial occupiers is vast. But I don’t see the neo-Cons, whether clad in the title Democrat or Republican abandoning their projected interests, namely of Israel dominating the region Politically, Economically, and Militarily at US expense…Why? Primarily, because if you’ll remember they control the process of synthesizing the public’s values and opinions… How? By feeding them shit akin to Walker Texas Ranger, etc.,etc. I discussed this business only today with Vinyard Shaker, and the dialogue should be expanded.

    Posted by Mace Price | April 27, 2007, 9:46 pm
  22. …This means all the regular commentators

    Posted by Mace Price | April 27, 2007, 9:48 pm

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