Excerpt of the exchange between President Ahmadinejad and Mr Coatsworth at Columbia University:
MR. COATSWORTH: Mr. President, your statements here today and in the past have provoked many questions which I would like to pose to you on behalf of the students and faculty who have submitted them to me.
Let me begin with the question to which you just -
PRESIDENT AHMADINEJAD: (In English.) It is one by one, one by one.
MR. COATSWORTH: One by one, it is, yes. (Applause.)
The first question is: Do you or your government seek the destruction of the state of Israel as a Jewish state?
PRESIDENT AHMADINEJAD: We love all nations. We are friends with the Jewish people. There are many Jews in Iran living peacefully with security. You must understand that in our constitution, in our laws, in the parliamentary elections, for every 150,000 people we get one representative in the parliament. For the Jewish community, one-fifth of this number they still get one independent representative in the parliament. So our proposal to the Palestinian plight is a humanitarian and democratic proposal.
What we say is that to solve the 60-year problem we must allow the Palestinian people to decide about its future for itself. This is compatible with the spirit of the Charter of the United Nations and the fundamental principles enshrined in it. We must allow Jewish Palestinians, Muslim Palestinians and Christian Palestinians to determine their own fate themselves through a free referendum. Whatever they choose as a nation everybody should accept and respect. Nobody should interfere in the affairs of the Palestinian nation. Nobody should sow the seeds of discord. Nobody should spend tens of billions of dollars equipping and arming one group there.
We say allow the Palestinian nation to decide its own future, to have the right to self-determination for itself. This is what we are saying as the Iranian nation. (Applause.)
MR. COATSWORTH: Mr. President, I think many members of our audience would be — would like to hear a clearer answer to that question, that is — (interrupted by cheers, applause).
The question is: Do you or your government seek the destruction of the state of Israel as a Jewish state? And I think you could answer that question with a single word, either yes or no. (Cheers, applause.)
PRESIDENT AHMADINEJAD: And then you want the answer the way you want to hear it. Well, this isn’t really a free flow of information. I’m just telling you where I — what my position is. (Applause.)
I’m asking you, is the Palestinian issue not an international issue of prominence or not? Please tell me, yes or no. (Laughter, applause.)
There’s a plight of a people.
MR. COATSWORTH: The answer to your question is yes. (Laughter.)
PRESIDENT AHMADINEJAD: Well, thank you for your cooperation.
It is — we recognize there is a problem there that’s been going on for 60 years. Everybody provides a solution, and our solution is a free referendum. Let this referendum happen, and then you’ll see what the results are. Let the people of Palestine freely choose what they want for their future. And then what you want in your mind to happen, it will happen and will be realized. (Applause.)
A quite amazing exchange indeed.
Coatsworth is repeatedly clearly conflating two different questions:
- the existence of the state of Israel
- the nature of the state of Israel
These are two very different issues. Nobody has ever challenged the right of Germany, Russia or South Africa to exist as a state. However, that does not imply that a Nazi, Soviet Communist or Apartheid regime in these countries had a "right to exist". Coatsworth calls Israel a "Jewish state" overlooking the fact that according to the 2006 CIA World Factbook, quoting 2004 data, Jews account for only 76.4% and non-Jews account for 23.6% (mostly Arab). Thus, as long as Israel will remain an officially "Jewish state" 23.6% of its citizens will have their basic civil rights denied.
Also, can you imagine Iran declaring itself an "Aryan state"! Just imagine the comparisons with Hitler if that happened!
If one thinks of "Jewish" as an ethnicity, any "Jewish state" is an officially racist state, and if one thinks of "Jewish" as a religion, then any "Jewish state" is a theocracy. Either way - it is not a democracy, much less so the ‘only democracy in the Middle-East’.
The solution proposed by Iran, the self-determination of *ALL* the peoples of Palestine regardless of the ethnicity or religion is, in fact, the only democratic one. The fact that this solution would entail the loss of the Jewish character of the state of Israel is only an inevitable consequence of the racist/theocratic foundation upon which this state was built and as long as this foundation will remain there shall be no peace in the Middle-East.
PS: please check out my commentary about the reception Ahmadinejad got at Columbia U. or how Mr Bollinder could learn some basic manner from Middle-Eastern camel herders
Thanks for the post VS
glad you liked it. of all things, racism is the one thing which really pisses me off most, and all those “racism-blind” self-righteous “democrats” really make me sick.
It won’t be long before most Americans start to believe Ahmadinejad had something to do with 9/11. It looks like the big propaganda push for war with Iran is on and it’s very obvious the media is unambiguously seeking to tell us what to think of Iran.
I am stunned by the courage shown by a public figure on this.
There are two angles on this
1) If the neocons want to go to war for Israel, then damn it – let them ask- straight up. No WND cover of lies, No making our oil supply secure. No Wilsonian making the world safe for democracy. No boogie man of the caliphate from Spain to Turkey that will take over the world. No Nazi analogies that make an impartial stand on Israel equivalent to dooming world Jewry to a new holocaust. Just fairly ask this: For the sake realizing Israeli manifest destiny , is the US willing to engage in a regional war that may have not brakes and no visible means of extraction for the US? Is there any cap on the cost in lives and treasure and security after which the US is draws a line? Would we Nuke Iran if Israel said it was necessary to take out underground facilities in Iran? Will we lie about evidence before the world like we did about the current war?
2) Asking an American People that have been subjected to a man stream media propaganda blitz for hears, with the Lobby owning both parties and possessing the franchise on what constitutes acceptable speech – asking this question of such a public is not meaningful if you want a dispassionately and fairly presented discussion on the range of options. The whole range of speech has been considered off the table. I wonder if Scheuer will be crucified and his career ruined. That’s my bet. They will put him on the list with Buchanan now, and if it takes 20 years, they will see him crushed.
3)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ohz0omUjIE
one more just in: http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2007/09/iranian-university-chancellors-ask.html
My God, Scott I remember maybe a month or so ago both you and Juan Cole published an article about how they were getting ready to ramp up their new war product, alluding to the same technique they used in 2003
gearing up for war with Iraq, where Andy Card(I think?) used the phrase ‘”you don’t introduce a new product in August.”
It seems that article was unfortunately spot on.
Good post, but I surely challenge the right of other states to exist. The State of Israel has no more or less right than any other state to exist.
I’m a little worried about the possibility that Mchael Scheuer will be smeared as an antisemite after that exchange. From what I have seen and heard from Michael Scheuer, the man is a nationalist who prizes American interests above all else, including bringing democracy to the Arab world or insuring Israel’s liberty at the expense of Americans lives or financial security.
That is the mindset he was speaking from. Unfortunately most Americans are so accustomed to hearing that the US needs to “play a leadership role” in remedying whatever our elite claims is ailing the world, that quite a few people are dismayed by what he says. It never crossed their mind that America should only act to advance legitimate American security interests.
The State of Israel has no more or less right than any other state to exist.
Of course it has no such “right”, and neither does any other state. Besides, who would grant (or deny) a “right to exist” to a state or to any other thing anyway?! Things either exist, or the don’t. Name me a single “legitimate” border on the worldmap. Same thing: borders are where they are, but that does not mean that anyone has to like them, or give them the right to exist. This entire thing “about right to exist” is a nonsensical non-issue.
The real issue is not existence, its *recognition*, of course. And Iran refuses to recognize a racist/theocratic state whose self-definition is based on ethnicity or religion (something coming straight out the the Middle-Ages, IMHO).
What a brilliant speech Ahmadinejad just made at the U.N. It is occasions like this where the U.N. is a very useful organization. It is the one issue on which I disagree with the Greatest American Ever, Ron Paul. He believes the United States of Israel should withdraw from the U.N., but I say they should be kicked out. They are clearly a rogue and dangerous nation, with no place among compassionate and civilized men. It is BECAUSE of the U.S.I.’s membership (and veto power), not IN SPITE of it, that the U.N. has become a failed and impotent organization. Only then can the world unite to stop the out-of-control monster before its too late, and to begin to work towards peace on earth.
You know, I’m no fan of Iran… so I don’t want people to think that I think Iran is a beautiful place. To me the issue is, Israel is exactly what Saker said: a racist/theocratic state whose self-definition is based on ethnicity or religion. And, that this isn’t made an important point is the big issue. Why are americans supporting this? And when people like Bill Maher say that it’s a democracy, without any sort of distinction of what sort of democracy it is… is laughable. Like it’s Canada or something.
Now, I also don’t want to say that there is a host full of glorious countries and governments in the middle east. If Israel wasn’t the way it is, and was closer or the same as a western style democracy, I would support it much more. They would also have a stronger argument for support and help because then, it really could be similar to a western style government.
Now change topic a bit, I remember someone saying something about Objectivists on here a while back, I think it was Steve C. .. of how the Ayn Rand Institute supports Israel etc. (They used to have an Israeli flag flying up on their site) I don’t want to put all Objectivists under this, because not all are like this, but many are. Actually, I would say all are, because the ones I would say are not, aren’t Objectivists, they are only sympathetic to it. To me, the Objectivists are kind of like the Neo-Cons of the Libertarian movement. It is absolutely hilarious to see how they can come up with all these kooky rationalizations to support the worst of two evils at an election.
They are always getting ready for their dreamed of Objectivist paradise, which as far as I’m concerned is utopian. Their minarchist government would soon collapse into an anarchist one, the exact thing they hate so much. Maybe I’m wrong though, maybe everyone will “convert” and obey the Objectivist ethics, but until then… they must vote for so and so… the worst of two evils, because the world is at stake.
Interesting article:
http://www.counterpunch.org/ross09242007.html
Oh, one more thing…didn’t Ayn Rand call race an “anti-concept?” How does being an “individualist” who thinks race is an “anti-concept” support Israel? How does one support a Jewish state when they don’t believe in “God,” and they think race is an “anti-concept?”
I guess the Ayn Rand Insitute are either a.) God Worshippers, b.) Racists… or c.) Racist God Worshippers. They’re amazing.
I don’t really care what the nature of the Israeli state is. I’m just sick of Ramsi Yousef types killing Americans over it.