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For today:
Wingin’ it.
Listen live from 11-1 on 92.7 in Austin or stream from kaosradioaustin.org.
What the hell, let’s have some callers too. 512 646 6446.
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© 2008 Stress. 
Have you seen the Patreaus news ? you probably have, it’s at the top on antiwar.com
Posted by Anders | April 23, 2008, 11:05 amScott did you ever find that download of Adobe Audition? BTmon normally has good torrents. You can probably find a key generator here. I can’t even play the archive for yesterday, I’ll have to wait until I get home and try VLC player.
Posted by Troy | April 23, 2008, 11:39 amthat clip was from the channel 4 dispatches documentary, The whole thing is here , it was a fairly good program.
Posted by Anders | April 23, 2008, 11:55 amheres a little video about the new york times piece,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQP7ASBdwdo&eurl=http://mrknightblog.blogspot.com/
Heh, Bill O’Reilly gets a mention in the memo thingy.
Posted by Anders | April 23, 2008, 12:35 pmBjørn Rafto
Scott (responding to many comments that piled up yesterday),
As a structural engineer, and as one who no longer lives in a United State, I really do not care who pulled off 911 nor do I really care what the motivation for 911 was. I will leave that to you conspiracy folks.
Consider: does it make any difference to a doctor digging a bullet out of a victim who the shooter was - black, white, Hispanic, bad guy, good guy, self inflicted? Nope; to the surgeon - emergency or otherwise - such speculation is irrelevant just as the who and why of 911 is irrelevant to me. In fact, for the surgeon to get caught up emotionally in shooter speculation would only tend to compromise the surgery and recovery of the patient. Such speculation to a professional is what I call an “energy vampire”.
I am interested scientifically in what caused WTC-7 to collapse as it did. If, as you all claim, it was a George Tenet “slam dunk” kind of mode as you all have anecdotally argued above, then why has the organization officially tasked with the job - the National Institute of Science and Technology - that structural engineers, soils engineers, geologists, architects, all other building professionals, AND numerous government agencies look to for answers yet to issue a determination and finding?
? . . .
You may now return to your regularly scheduled conspiracy theories . . .
Bjørn Rafto
Posted by Bjørn Rafto | April 23, 2008, 12:46 pmFmr US Naval Officer (1975-81)
Structural Engineer
the question is why should i give a fuck what some stupid government agency report says anyway?
Posted by Scott | April 23, 2008, 1:06 pm“I am interested scientifically in what caused WTC-7 to collapse as it did”
It does look like a controlled demolition, I’ll grant you that, but what about the big chunk that was sliced out of it by the tower next to it , coupled with the raging internal fires ? do those things not play any part ? also why would they rig wtc7 with explosives and not have a plane hit it before it fell like the other two ?
The Bush admin have been involved in real crimes that are out in the open and would/should put them away for a long time, why do people have to make crimes up ?, … they’ve started an illegal war based on flat out provable lies, killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis… that not enough for you ?
Posted by Anders | April 23, 2008, 1:19 pmWhat would the conspiracy be anyway as far the actual attack is concerned? Only the most whacked out 911 nutjob would say the towers weren’t hit by airplanes, so what would even be the point of planting explosives? Even if the towers didn’t crash like they did, hundreds of people would have died and that would have served the purposes of the neocons. They would just say, “Imagine if those towers fell! We’ll get the people who did this (Sadaam) and make sure they pay for this crime (Sadaam)!” Planting explosives would have just been excessive and increased the chance for them to get caught, since one of the workers might find at least one of the blasting caps.
Posted by Troy | April 23, 2008, 1:34 pmScott,
The question is, how often do you enter a structure in excess of three levels (design and construction of four or more levels in your country requires a structural engineer’s review) or cross a public bridge of any size?
Do you care?
Your county’s infrastructure has long been ignored - never mind the mode of failure of WTC-7
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20079534/
9 thought dead as Minneapolis bridge collapses
Death toll expected to rise, fire chief says; at least 60 injured, 6 critically
And, the reason your country’s bridges and building are in such a dangerous state of affairs is partially due to attitudes such as yours.
More of these “collapses” are coming unless modes of failure are anticipated and corrected.
Bjørn Rafto
Posted by Bjørn Rafto | April 23, 2008, 1:36 pmFmr US Naval Officer (1975-81)
Structural Engineer
well then, the safety of skyscrapers is now on my list of top priorities. thanks.
Posted by Scott | April 23, 2008, 1:42 pmI think this is where the insurance conspiracy comes into play, Larry Silverstein, who purchased the towers and brought insurance around 6 weeks prior to the attacks, would only be in on the plot if he could claim massive insurance on them and be able to re-build, so they just had to come down, also the towers were laden with asbestos and the cost of removal would have been huge so they hired al qeada to remove it for them free of charge
heres an interesting coincidence, larry silverstein had a “doctors appointment ” on the day of 9/11, and was subsequently missing from his office in the top section of one of the buildings, also both his son and daughter were scheduled to be in a meeting at the windows to the world cafe but we’re both “late” for work that day…….
argh I’ve caught kookery disease.
as you can see, I’m pretty well versed in the 9/11 kooks theories.
Posted by Anders | April 23, 2008, 1:43 pmA “doctors appointment” eh? Would that be Dr. Doom?! Maybe his son and daughter were late because they were tired from planting explosives in Building 7 all night and their meeting with the Illuminati for last minute planning on the “attacks”.
Posted by Troy | April 23, 2008, 1:56 pmlol troy
Larry Silverstien, being jew, is of course a mossad agent
Posted by Anders | April 23, 2008, 2:03 pmGeeze …. don’t you guys have enough sense to speak in code….
Stop saying Jew….. Use “conspiracy of international bankers” or doing the bidding of “agents who may have conflicting loyalties with those of the average American”….
Man….
No wonder Tim Reifat can’t get beyond Jeff Rense…..and he at least qualifies his remarks by saying ZIONIST Jew or Agent of the Rothchilds…..
Don’t you guys want to make something of yourselves?
Posted by stevec | April 23, 2008, 2:18 pmI mean if we weren’t holding Scott back, he could be the next Wally George or something….
Posted by stevec | April 23, 2008, 2:19 pmI’ll remember that for future reference stevec
their are some odd coincidences, but thats true of any big event with lots of people i suppose.
Posted by Anders | April 23, 2008, 2:32 pmScott,
Are you curious about what is the prime financial motivator to fund the Iraq war regardless the divers issues motivating the investors (oil, Israel, getting Saddam - whether or not he was behind 911 - dollar hegemony, building more US bases, et cet)?
Try 134,400 municipal corporations (MC) across America. Each MC in your country is required to file a Comprehensive Annual Financial Report (CAFR) every year.
Do you care about that - no?
Google “cafr” and you will get 7.3 million+ “hits”.
Getting curious?
For example google “Austin Texas cafr” and the first of 46,000+ hits is: http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/controller/
Yawn - boring?
Well, with in that CAFR, along with the other 134,400 CAFRs is the answer.
Primer: If you take the time to analyze these documents they disclose not only ALL sources of income for your favorite MC but they EXPLICITLY (like an OMB 1040) describe each source. In addition to revenue from taxes and assessments - about 1/3 of gross income for most MC - which you hear all about at budget time in the local news, each CAFR also discloses the other proximate 2/3 of gross revenue which consists of stocks, bonds, credit default swaps (CDR), enterprise zones, off shore investments, et cet. This 2/3 of the gross is not disclosed in ANY MC “budget” so this comes in handy at budget time when the MC whines about being broke, cannot fill the pot holes, fix the bridges (;-p) and thus needs to have everybody vote to raise taxes. A useful tool for financial dummies is http://www.cafrman.com where you can find a number of the larger CAFRs analyzed. If you do a Nexus, Lexus search of all news reported in America and search for “CAFR” you will almost draw a blanc. Hm, might you wonder why?
So again, who is funding the Iraq war?
Why, generally speaking 134,400 MC across America. They own, according to the details in these CAFRs, everything in America. Over 80% of the outstanding shares on the NYSE, over 80% of the outstanding shares of the so called Fortune 500 companies such as Microsoft (83% of outstanding shares), Disney Corporation, et cet. In fact if you look at the top investments of America’s MC - notwithstanding their huge interest offshore - you will note MC own or control the Military Industrial companies, the Pharmaceuticals, the MSM companies, and just about everything else. When WalMart imports goods from China those good have been created by companies owned, controlled, and or having a substantial interest held by America’s MC. In fact the decline of the USD is a bonanza for their offshore portfolios. Maybe you have noticed there is talk afoot to “privatize” various America public infrastructure like Social Security, bridges (;-p), roads, et cet. Can you guess why?
So again explicitly, who is funding the war?
You are Scott.
Anyway the expert on this is a former commodities trader who used to have an office in New York’s WTC. His name is Walter Burien, and you can find him at http://www.cafr1.com He is available for interview; in fact Karen Kwiatkowski recently had Walter on her radio show upon my suggestion: http://mp3.wtprn.com/Karen08.html (Monday April 14, 2008)
Cheers,
Bjørn Rafto
Posted by Bjørn Rafto | April 23, 2008, 3:07 pmFmr US Naval Officer (1975-81)
Structural Engineer
Scott,
CAFR postscript if I may:
MC across America have huge stock porfolia. And, at any given time that portfolia is generally 15-17% short (”selling short”) to long (merely buying a stock and hoping it rises in price). Curiously on 911, according to Walter Burien (I hate accounting LOL) MCs across America were holding the highest short position EVER. When 911 happened you may recall the stock market gapped down and then slid down for awhile; some stocks, like certain airlines, totally tanked.
Well, again according to Walter, on 911 and thereafter MC took a little bit of a hit on their long positions. However, on their short positions, over a period of ten (10) days after 911, MC across America scored $3 TRILLION . . . ($3,000,000,000,000).
Bjørn Rafto
Posted by Bjørn Rafto | April 23, 2008, 3:18 pmFmr US Naval Officer (1975-81)
Structural Engineer
Bjorn,
Please go and fuck yourself. How you think anyone is going to sit and read through “I bet you don’t know stuff like me cuz I’m so fucking smart,” beyond the first couple sentences is beyond me. I didn’t.
So please go troll around where you can find anyone interested in what you have to say, because it’s not here.
Posted by Scott | April 23, 2008, 4:05 pmSo my local comptroller was putting bombs in WTC-7?
Or you’re suggesting that because my local municipality may invest in the stocks of war-profiteering corporations that I’m somehow responsible for it? Well, I’m not a collectivist or some utopian small ‘d’ democrat, so I don’t think that The People are The State. If I “choose” to withold my “contribution” to their fund, they send guys with guns to lock me in a dungeon.
In the case of my local government’s thugs, they’re the small-town vile, bored, cowardly goon taken to the Nth degree. How many people can say that their first and only barfight was being jumped by a bunch of goons for nonexistantant vandalism on a sign across the street (the pretext to attack my friend and I), and had subsequently had their penis grabbed repeatedly while being “searched” in an alley as the other goons watched gleefully?
But I digress.
Back to the morality of investments…
I recall Richard Maybury pointing out (wasn’t Scott going to have him on the show sometime soon?), unless you’re lobbying the government to go around the world murdering/”liberating” people, or otherwise actively encouraging or supporting the US Gov’t’s murderous policies, there isn’t really anything intrinsically wrong with being the one who receives the dividend payments on some Haliburton stock. Someone is going to, afterall.
If you have money in a savings account, you’re being paid a pittitance of interest a sizeable chunk of which is probably from US Treasury securities which directly fund the war in Iraq. Leviathan has it’s tentacles on everything. There really isn’t very much that you can invest your money in that isn’t in some way connected to the warfare state.
–Evilpaul, part-time student and amateur writer who doesn’t think 9/11 was an inside job.
Posted by evilpaul | April 23, 2008, 4:07 pmTwin Towers Engineered To Withstand Jet Collision
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19930227&slug=1687698
Posted by Paul | April 23, 2008, 4:38 pmPaul,
Yeah, but SO FUCKING WHAT? HUH? They fell anyway. Yeah. And…?
Christ!
Posted by Scott | April 23, 2008, 4:43 pmDear Scott,
Why don’t you have any critical thinking skills much less too such an admitted short attention span?
You rave about the Iraq “war” (a travesty to be sure) yet you are, due to your ignorance, lack of critical thinking, and short attention span, funding it. Municipal corporations are run on the principal of democratic fascism - you own your property, however, you are only “permitted” to use it as the corporation sees fit. You are screwed in your own country and can’t even put your intellect on the reason.
Sad.
Wake up and follow the money. Given your ignorance on the money Walter Burien would eat you alive; hm, that might might help increase your audience - but I suppose you don’t care about that either.
Laters,
Bjørn Rafto
Posted by Bjørn Rafto | April 23, 2008, 4:56 pmFmr US Naval Officer (1975-81)
Structural Engineer
http://www.rafto.no
Fuck your mother. Piece of shit.
Posted by Scott | April 23, 2008, 4:58 pmThe thing that annoys me with these 9/11 truth people is that their mantra is always “do the research, come to your own conclusions” yet when you do it and still don’t agree with them they don’t leave you alone like yer man Bjorn here.
Posted by Anders | April 23, 2008, 5:15 pmDear Scott,
What do they say, oh yes, “Casting pearls before swine.”
Cheers,
Bjørn Rafto
Posted by Bjørn Rafto | April 23, 2008, 5:26 pmFmr US Naval Officer (1975-81)
Structural Engineer
http://www.rafto.no
If you were as interested in critical thinking and rooting out the truth as you claim, Bjorn, you wouldn’t be attacking the character or intelligence of the person who runs this blog, which is behavior more fitting a bully who has little interest in fact, truth, or critically debating issues. Intellectually dishonest. Argumentum ad hominem. If you have something valid or pertinent to say, say it without seeking to assassinate Scott’s character or intelligence. Anyone of these bloggers would be happy to discuss and debate real issues with you in an open forum without dripping of the nastiness you’ve brought here. Otherwise, say goodbye.
Posted by Elizabeth | April 23, 2008, 6:26 pmElizabeth,
I have not attacked his character, I have merely accepted what he said about himself; you might want to review the blog complete for context.
Do I get to use all the four letter words, and discuss how to sexually attend to his mother’s needs as Scott does mine (now deceased btw)? Well, even if you said “yes” I would not stoop to that level.
I suggest your review yesterdays blog too.
134,400 Municipal corporations across America, operated on the principal of democratic fascism, own virtually everything in America and are the fundamental financial reason the War in Iraq continues. From yesterday, the NIST has failed to issue a determination and finding on the mode of failure of WTC-7 (I only mentioned this in yesterday’s blog because Scott went off yet again on the first hour out of the blue on his radio show about 911 conspiracy “kooks” - he keeps bringing it up so maybe he is trolling, eh?).
These are the two issues I am interested in discussing aside from the fact I am NOT interested in conspiracy theories about the who and why of 911 as they are irrelevant to me (and Scott too though he can’t seem to stop bringing them up on the radio and in his blog contrary to what he claims).
Have any thoughts on those two subjects; have you looked at a CAFR and hugged your cat today?
Bjørn Rafto
Posted by Bjørn Rafto | April 23, 2008, 6:47 pmFmr US Naval Officer (1975-81)
Structural Engineer
http://www.rafto.no
It’s your pompous style and assumptions that make you so unpalatable, Bjorn– re: “have you . . . hugged your cat today?” LOL Come on, you enjoy the game of nasty much more than actual honest debate. You seem to like it when someone openly cusses at you in frustration, as if you’ve won something. Nudge nudge.
Move along and have a nice evening.
Posted by Elizabeth | April 23, 2008, 7:09 pmWell i’m an idiot and posted my comment to the wrong section.
Re: Today’s show and the WTC debate.
http://thestressblog.com/2008/04/23/syrian-nukes/#comment-42608
Mr. Rafto, or anybody else: do you know of any answers to the questions I raised there? Thanks.
Posted by cowbot | April 23, 2008, 8:08 pmElizabeth,
LOL, and of course move along.
There is indeed NOTHING to see here!
Ciao,
Bjørn Rafto
Posted by Bjørn Rafto | April 23, 2008, 8:18 pmFmr US Naval Officer (1975-81)
Structural Engineer
http://www.rafto.no
cowbot,
As you have discovered there is a huge fly in the ointment with respect to the mode of failure of WTC-7.
In a nut shell it is virtually impossible, as the historical record of steel frame fires confirms, to cause a non-eccentric structural collapse through the mechanism of fire. Even if all 47 floors of WTC-7 had been totally engulfed in diesel enhanced fires using tons of pure oxygen to provide uniform burning and maximum heat the probability of that steel structure collapsing UNIFORMLY as it did would be negligiblly close to zero.
Thanks for providing the link,
Bjørn Rafto
Fmr US Naval Officer (1975-81)
Structural Engineer
http://www.rafto.no
//
(cowbot) On our little WTC7 rehash debate:
I finally read the NIST report carefully and saw their pic of apparent damage on the SW corner. Looks like ejecta from the towers sheared part of it off. However this is not the side where NIST said the collapse initiated. We have no evidence of significant debris damage to the building that is consistent with the observed collapse. So claims we’ve read about debris initiating collapse are bullshit from NIST’s own models.
(NIST report, 2004)
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/June2004WTC7StructuralFire&CollapseAnalysisPrint.pdf
Their model requires columns 79, 80, or 81 to fail between floors 7 and 13 to explain the observed collapse of the penthouse and the creation of shear loads to cause progressive failure. However consider their own words:
“Massive size of columns 79, 80, and 81 appears to require severe
fires and/or damaged fireproofing to initiate thermally-related failures”
“No diesel smells reported from the exterior, stairwells, or lobby”
We do see fires between floors 11-12 on the east face (near column 81) near 2 PM “which progressed north”. But how office fires yielding dark smoke are capable of causing structural failure in massive vertical steel columns remains a mystery. A little historical research reveals many severe fires (and total infernos) in steel framed skyscrapers and no such recorded collapses. The fires observed in WTC 7 are positively wimpy by comparison.
… “Little hole in the theory” as Bill Hicks would say.
Bjørn Rafto, we do not *all* claim the same thing so please don’t lump stressbloggers together, I don’t present speculative conspiracy theories as ‘the truth’; I’m a critical skeptic with unanswered questions:
Has the NIST open-sourced their models and data for peer review? Has anyone else run the finite element analysis and do the numbers wash? Where is the detailed explanation for what caused the fires? Why did such fires not occur in other (closer) damaged buildings? Where is the analysis of how those fires caused the vertical columns to fail? Do the observed east-side fires on the 11th and 12th floor constitute “severe fires”? What kind of temperatures would they cause, and for what duration? Were there unusual materials present on those floors near the columns that would superheat them? Was the decision to not fight the fires plausible? Who ordered the evidence removed and hindered investigations of the debris?
Posted by Bjørn Rafto | April 23, 2008, 8:34 pmHow many times has this happened to you?:
9/11 Kook: “Well what about building 7 huh?!”
Reasonable person who is still somehow bored enough to bother with this shit in the first place: “Well it was extremely damaged - no, red herring, not just a little bit of the front corner - and burned like a motherfucker all day while the firefighters were telling each other get back, that dang thing’s gonna fall. Besides, it’s been Years and you kooks still don’t have the slightest shred of proof of any bombs in there or even an alternative explanations of any sensible description as to what happened instead. So please, for God’s sake, would you idiots finally piss off?”
9/11 Kook: “Oh yeah? Well I bet you’ve never heard of Doug Rokke! I bet you don’t know about Municipal Bonds!”
Reasonable person: Please go fuck yourself some more.
Reasonable person #2: Hey, I just got here. Please, Kook, do start from the beginning…
Posted by Scott | April 23, 2008, 8:56 pmScott,
Your information/knowledge on WTC-7 is anecdotal, uniformed, dated, irrelevant and, in terribly sad way, unAmerican.
Btw, I did not mention “Municipal Bonds” at all with respect to the CAFR. And, as facts would have it Municipal Bonds play a very small role with respect to the issue of annual municipal “budgets” contrasted with gross income revealed by the CAFR.
But you do not wish to be confused with the facts, eh.
Bjørn Rafto
Posted by Bjørn Rafto | April 23, 2008, 9:28 pmFmr US Naval Officer (1975-81)
Structural Engineer
http://www.rafto.no
I think part of my brain just climbed out of my ear and went to find something sharp to climb back in with.
Posted by evilpaul | April 23, 2008, 9:54 pmWho is this Bjorn guy anyway? Former Structural Engineer? Did he resign?
I have been away and unable to blog but here is the best I can offer
http://youtube.com/watch?v=KidAjuuXlgk
Moe really bursts my bubble here. Using the F-word. I am sure you are happy about this Scott!!!!
Posted by phil | April 23, 2008, 10:23 pm“But you do not wish to be confused with the facts, eh.”
No, see, it’s just that I paid no real attention to what you wrote because you are one of those pathetic 9/11 kook trolls who’s life is worth less than nothing to me and doubtful to anyone else. See?
Posted by Scott | April 23, 2008, 10:33 pmPhil,
Heh. More Stooges! You used to post those all the time.
Posted by Scott | April 23, 2008, 10:34 pmYeah but what about Moe using the F-bomb. What do you think of that??
Posted by phil | April 23, 2008, 10:35 pmAwesome. I never saw that when I was a kid. I like the one where they deliver the block of ice to the old lady’s house on top of the giant front steps. Know the one I mean?
Posted by Scott | April 23, 2008, 10:40 pmYeah and the one where he shaves some ice too:
http://www.evtv1.com/player.aspx?itemnum=9018
Posted by phil | April 23, 2008, 10:47 pm“Are you married or happy?”
Ha!
Posted by Scott | April 23, 2008, 10:51 pmHey Bob Bogus…..new ad on GCN……detoxer Foot Pads…..you put one on each foot at night and while you sleep they pull the heavy metals out of your body….. Do you think if Scott goes bigtime he’ll have to shill for all kinds of suspect products?
Posted by stevec | April 23, 2008, 11:34 pmOne thing that we definitely shouldn’t do is rely on intuition. It’s a mistake to conclude that WTC7 fell by controlled demolition just because the collapse looks like a controlled demolition. A layman’s intuition just doesn’t cut it when dealing with big structures and forces. For example, Look at this suspension bridge.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8075837260537084292
Would your intuition ever lead you to imagine this is possible if you didn’t see it?
I don’t have the time to make a career out of this, but IMO there are two things that need to happen before it earns the title of ’scientific credibility’.
1) If the model of the progressive collapse is to be accepted, all their data must be made publicly available and subject to independent verification. A shearing collapse looks nice on paper or in a computer animation but a lay-person can not judge whether it’s accurate. Loads, materials composition, weld types, truss strengh, non-load-bearing wall strengths must be accurately modeled. I haven’t yet found any indication that NIST has made their data available. Have they? And if not, why don’t they release it?
2) If the NIST model for progressive collapse is ever released and verified, then how did vertical columns 79, 80 and/or 81 fail from the fire on the 11th-12th floor (or were there others)? I’ve reviewed the 84 page analysis of the fuel-oil distribution systems for emergency power backup http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NIST%20NCSTAR%201-1J.pdf, and I found no generators or fuel lines on the 11-12th floor. It seems that NIST has not provided evidence for fuel-oil driving the fires around the columns in question. The 9/11 NIST faq claims “Normal building fires and hydrocarbon (e.g., jet fuel) fires generate temperatures up to about 1,100 degrees Celsius (2,000 degrees Fahrenheit). Yes, but was the 12th story fire that hot?. I can be drunk at 9 AM but that doesn’t mean I was last Wednesday. According to several sources, the UL had certified the steel in accordance with standards that required it to be capable of sustaining temperatures up to 2,000 degrees F for three to four hours before it would significantly weaken. Given the UL certification and heat conductivity of steel, was that particular two story office fire really enough to have heated one or more of the core columns to failure?
Science requires independent verification. History requires review and revision. I’m just trying to identify the valid questions with the time I have available.
In my opinion, the nimrods who bleat about ufos and missiles and hologram planes have done a great deal of harm to those asking serious questions, and the NIST hasn’t done enough to answer them.
I will try to stop, but it’s like quitting smoking…
Posted by cowbot | April 24, 2008, 12:15 amIf I remember the commercial correctly, those footpads are based on “ancient Japanese homeopathy and reflexology”. Wow! Two things don’t work, I can feel my Chi improving just hearing about it.
Posted by Troy | April 24, 2008, 12:23 am